thoughts on abortion

[WeyrDragon]

I got a couple things to say about this. First is that I respect your opinion, but strongly disagree with it. Second is that I did mention the issue that I underlined from what you said. Third, I suggest that you read what I posted a little bit ago, it answers most of what you said.

what he said.... my two posts have already covered most of your questions.

[Lon]

Mars dear, your point is valid about sex being a natural thing but it is skewed. Sex was designed to facilitate procreation (thats medical talk for making babies for all the 12 year olds out there.) It isn't like Don't Walk as you put it. When you are having sex for anything other than the intent to have children you are missing the HUGE anatomical/biological/biomechanical boat here! Sex is not for pleasure. It is for passing on your genes to the next of generation. Pleasure is just a side effect. It is sad that some people miss this point and winde up pregnent.
I should also as far as to say that I have never heard of a family who is planning to have a baby, getting pregnent, and then having an abortion. And if there IS a case of this someone let me know and I'll eat my modem. Abortion in my experiences has always came out of either people screwing around for a cheap thrill - not for the purpose of procreation. Or rape. And rape is a topic I will avoid because I will show some level of sympathy for a rape victem.

Queen of Mars Another thing I haven't seen in this thread. What if the mother's life is in danger? This IS a living, breathing, walking and LEGALLY living being. Why put both the fetus AND mother in danger when you can escape death and try for another child?

like rape... this is such a delicate subject. And one I personally will avoid. Begrugenly, I would be compelled to turn a blind eye to this cercomstancual(sp?) situation. And as with rape, I would hold my tongue unless my opinion is specificly asked for...out of respect for those involved. I do not agree with it. I don't want to be a part of it. And I don't want to be the person with that decision weighted upon my shoulders. Yes... sometimes things must be done that we don't like, and these are the only two exceptions that I would say this to... but this isn't just the common abortion delima either. This isn't a mistake this is a tradgety. And the reason why I wipe my hands of this is so you can't come back and catch me in my own logic loop holes. "See... if you aprove of one version of abortion, then why stand against the others. Abortion is abortion." Does any of this make sense? I know I can be very confusing with how I feel about these two very very special cercomestances.

queen of mars: One more thing. Does anyone around here have any idea as to how many children are orphans? Yeah, people like Lon were lucky because they HAD a family waiting. I'm glad there are people like that in the world, but what if EVERY child was born? Not only are most projects underfunded, but they are at capacity. Abortions do keep teenage mothers from dumping their babies in dumpsters then running away.

Well first off, when you just glance at this last part, it strikes me as saying "So what about the life that we create? Sex is a fun thing, and its cool to do as much as we want, so lets go ahead and screw around and if we create a life...no big deal... we just kill it, wait a few months for things to heal up, and move on!" This strikes me very much of an irresponsible out look on sex with no consideration for the consiquences irreguardless of how you well you intended it to be. First off... we wouldn't be having the huge subject of abortion on such a rampent level as we do now, IF people used sex for what it was ment to be used for in the first place. This not only cuts down on the orphans out there, but the adoptions as well.

[sjøpølse]

Underage sex is based upon a set of moral principles. While these principles more than likely stemmed from one religion or another, the underlying necessity for them is quite great. Laws are based upon accepted Moral norms. If there were no morals, then laws would not exist, crimes and criminals would not exist, but the world would be full of chaos. I'm not saying a person should not have sex before marriage, but the mistake people make is that no matter what forms of prevention you use, pregnancies still happen. I myself have an extremely strong set of moral values and absolutely no religion behind it. A 14 year old girl should not have to go through the mental anguish of 1. being pregnant 2. abortion 3. putting their child up for adoption.

Mmm, I knew this all. What I was expecting is one to explain me this belief that sex before marriage (which does not mean underage sex) is "bad". But that was just a belligerent twist of mine because faith is inherently biased and unexplainable. I'd just like to add that "underage sex" indeed does not mean sex before marriage, and to me means only having sex before puberty (for the girls, it means the commencement of periods). Not that I want 11 years old girls to have sex right away, though they would be biologically ready to do so.

To sum it up, I am pro-choice (and I think that to use 'pro-death' is somewhat exagerated and very subjective), and even if that makes me a big amoral meany with no values, no virtue, no morals and no faith, I would not care at all of what people do in their bedrooms.

Moral of the story: use prevention meanS and have fun.

EDIT:

Mars dear, your point is valid about sex being a natural thing but it is skewed. Sex was designed to facilitate procreation (thats medical talk for making babies for all the 12 year olds out there.) It isn't like Don't Walk as you put it. When you are having sex for anything other than the intent to have children you are missing the HUGE anatomical/biological/biomechanical boat here! Sex is not for pleasure. It is for passing on your genes to the next of generation. Pleasure is just a side effect. It is sad that some people miss this point and winde up pregnent.

I'd just like to point it to you that some animals do have sex "just for fun". As well as some do masturbate. Because it's natural to seek pleasure and pleasant states of being. (Not that they don't assume it if the female gets pregnant, but still)

[Princess Minako]

You don't NEED to have sex. There are many people who can and will go thru life perfectly normal and not. That is a societal construct that sex is needed in a relationship to make it "whole". And not once did I say "Don't have sex at all".

I said "if you can't take the consequences of your actions don't do them". Basically sex is a very trying emtional and physical activity that too many people are taking upon themselves at too early of a physical and developmental age. They don't understand all the baggage and emotional ties that really accompanies giving yourself fully to one person. Excluding those who are able to seperate themselves and do it for "fun" they have psychological issues that can be discussed at a later time.

The consequences of sex is procreation. The purpose of sex is procreation. So if you are not ready to handle the responsibility that the only true way to 100% prevent procreation is abstinance, and you are putting yourself at a possibility to create a child then YOU SHOULD NOT BE HAVING SEX. It shows immaturity and irresponsibility. Today its peoples way of going "oh I'm too lazy/tired/irresponsible to use any form of birthcontrol so I'll just do it this time without and if I get pregnant then oh well I'll have an abortion and poof go on with my life"....I believe that mentality is wrong. Abortion should not be there for an "oh oops oh well" it should be there for extenuating circumstances as rape, incest, danger to mother/child life... not for immature kids to use because they can't handle the consequences of their actions.

To even classify the extenuating circumstances in with a "run of the mill" abortion is insulting to those who have those circumstances.

The Goddess has Spoken

[Kurai Ha]

I agree a lot with Jd Blade. I myself was never adopted but went from foster home to foster homes trying to figure things out on my own because nobody would tell me about my birth family 'till I was 12 years old. And the reasons I didn't find out till then are kind of twisted. But when people did finally confess I had to read between the lines to find out that i was a mistake. To this day, friends have allways been better than family. But if I wasn't alive, I wouldn't beable to have those friends now would I? So I'm also against the murder of yet born children. The whole death penalty thing though is still alright in my mind if the person did a really terrible crime like kill a dozen people for pleasure. Baby's on the other hand have not done anything wrong. Besides, a lot of the stories about foster homes aren't true. In fact, it increases the chance greatly that the child will be in a family that really loves it. People can have sex as long as they use common sense. Though society seems to be lacking that even more and more these days. Whatever happened to the days when they didn't have abortion and 14 was the common age for girls to healthily have children and take care of them. Of course you'll have to take in womens rights and time of education, but the point in that statement is that people should have to live with their mistakes so that they'll learn from them instead of hide away and repeat the same mistake. The only reason we have abortion is because of our technology that helps make life easier. Well, got to go, I like the other peoples view points and it's fun to argue and put up your opinions about things like this.

[Ninja Hatake Kakashi]

i find abortion a sin to god. How dare a person kill a child that didnt get a chance in the world.Gos would never ever fogive some one for taking anothers life.i find that plain and simply just wrong.Who knows that child could the key to something or may jus become famouse.Im sorry but i find that jus wrong..

[Sword]

It has nothing to do with God. I think abortion is OK as long as the foetus is still just a clump of cells, can't feel pain and hasn't developed any senses yet.

[Kyo Kusanagi]

Use your head and make sure you don't get into in a situation where you might end up with an unwanted pregnancy.

Actions have consequences, if you are unable to deal with the consequences of your actions maybe you shouldn't be doing those actions.

I think that says enough.



Be sensible. Don't go drinking excessively ..... thats when you're most vulnerable.

[Ollie]

I said "if you can't take the consequences of your actions don't do them".

except regardless of how many times you say it, it's not going to happen.

so what's the solution? Make hell for those who do get put in those situations. That'll teach 'em not to mess around - and the kid they are forced to have! ^_^

[Lon]

Whispers: so what's the solution? Make hell for those who do get put in those situations. That'll teach 'em not to mess around - and the kid they are forced to have! ^_^

That isn't a solution, that is just gasoline being added to the already inraging inferno of a fire. We shouldn't damn an individual or a pair of individuals for following through with their natural feelings, emotions, and desires. Sexual maturity, like all other forms of growing up requires the person to experement with themselves and ultimately others to become fully mature. A person is NOT the same mentally after they have had sex for the first time as they were before hand. So, punishing a couple, or specificly the girl for being pregnent when she doesn't want to be isn't going to solve anything. If anything else, it will just increase the number of unwanted pregnancies as human nature strives to defy the regulations applied to it.
The act of sex is not a crime. Though some catholics and other christians would argue the point. However, the decision to abort a life contained within the expecting mother should be. I don't condem the act of sex, or even impregnation. I DO advise people to be more mature and responsible about sex, and I damn the individuals involved in abortion.
When I say more mature, and responsible about sex, I am talking about the following:
Mature; means the individuals involved are fully aware of any and all consiquinces reguarding their actions leading up to unwanted impregnation and or the transfer or contracting virul STDS.
Responsible; Responsible meaning the involved party(s) are willing to accept the consiquences incured (if any) and move on with their lives or the lives of any child they sire in the process in a moraly and ethicly sound way.
A supporter of abortion may be quick to argue here that the impregnated woman who choses to have an abortion IS being responsible for her actions, and by having an abortion is here by taking responsibilty for her actions. However abortion is not morally or ethicly sound! And until it can be viewed as such, I just don't think it should be allowed.

Now what we SHOULD do is, make abortion illegal. Punish those that practice abortion simular to those who are convicted of manslaughter or vehicular homocide(That is roughly anywhere from 5 to 25 years in jail) for ever ban them from the practice of medicine, and be done with it. That will fix the problems real fast.
1) No medical doctor will risk the practice if their own license hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical school being wasted, and lively hood is on the line.
2) If no doctors are willing to practice abortion, this really narrows the market of places women who are pregnant to go to.
3) If women can't find an abortion clinic as easly (because there are none) then they are forced to either, deal with having the child and live with it, put it up for adoption, or adjust their life styles so that they don't end up pregnant to begin with!

Or... Even better yet. Since the govenrment is already in debt and is always looking for a way to make a buck. I suggest this suitable remedy. Lets tax the <explicit deleted by the censor monkeys> out of abortion, and charge an insanely high fee for it, simular to cigerettes. I can't say that it doesn't have an adverse effect on life like ciggerettes do, AND people refuse to just not do it... so hey... maybe we have a solution here. Make the cost of an abortion be around the price of say $3000.00 dollars USD. Drop like a 70% tax increase on that sucker so now the price of abortion is well over 8 grand. and JUST for ships and giggles put an admendment into the artical that states that medicare and or other health insurance providers will NOT cover or support any of the cost to abortion. That should put things into perspective REAL quick for our young and irresponsible mothers. Of course we would also drop an admendment in there for cases such as rape and medical neccessity... but documentation, examenations and doctors concent paper work would be needed, so it wouldn't be abused.
Since not just ANYONE can afford 10 grand for a simple little opperation if that, that will cut down on the number of abortions we have. And yet once again the problem is practically solved, and the government can NOW afford brand new AND better 200 dollar screw drivers. (You know the kind; the ones that not only put the screw in, but if you turn THESE special ones they ALSO remove the screw as well.)

[sjøpølse]

Now what we SHOULD do is, make abortion illegal. Punish those that practice abortion simular to those who are convicted of manslaughter or vehicular homocide(That is roughly anywhere from 5 to 25 years in jail) for ever ban them from the practice of medicine, and be done with it. That will fix the problems real fast.
1) No medical doctor will risk the practice if their own license hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical school being wasted, and lively hood is on the line.
2) If no doctors are willing to practice abortion, this really narrows the market of places women who are pregnant to go to.
3) If women can't find an abortion clinic as easly (because there are none) then they are forced to either, deal with having the child and live with it, put it up for adoption, or adjust their life styles so that they don't end up pregnant to begin with!

Now, are you aware of how aberrant and ludicrous and regressist is this? Are you aware of all the steps and fights that had to be made, by feminists, but also by women in general, just to acquire what I consider basic rights? You might not agree with abortion, still do not force your opinion onto others to a point where you infringe onto their rights. Up to now, I've been pretty light on the subject, but comments like this really pisses me.

I mean, be realistic a bit:
A child is conceived by a male and a female. The female carries. The female has all the crappy side-effects during the nine months (nauseas, puking, swelling, restricting life-style, etc.). Meanwhile, the male is completely free. Now, think that unwanted pregnancies usually happen to teens, with short to mid-term relationships. Do you really think that the male will endure these nine months with his so-beloved one? Perhaps the three first months and then *oops*, no more daddy. I don't want to say "all males are jerks", but, honestly, if I were a man, that's what I'd do (I don't like children). Then, the girl has to go through the carrying alone, whilst the conception was done by two people. The guy would have the choice but not the girl?
I've never given birth and most definitely never will, but can you just imagine the pain it provokes? Who are you to decide of the "proper punishment" for HALF those who fooled around with seed and eggs? Who do you think you are to condemn and judge in such a way? Sure, you have your own sad and hard bias, but how does that give you the right to decide of what should happen to others, with different opinions and situations? Your story is sad and all, but it DOES NOT give you the right to be judge of the humanity, nor to be a saint martyre who can inflict on "guilty people" the penalty he deems to be appropriate.

Then, making abortion illegal won't stop it. Perhaps for some, but most likely, it will make wealthy people go abort here in Canada, where, I hope, it won't ever be illegal, or in any other country that has it legal, and it will make the poors abort in illegal, disgusting, self-destructing ways, like your biological mother tried.
Moreover, tell me, who would sue the mother who asked for abortion? The government? The fetus? (Irony) Members of the family? Should the seeder be sued too?

Yes, be responsible and mature about sex. Use protection, avoid one-timers. Still, "accidents" will happen. And, in my opinion, when you reach the point where a fetus is called an "accident", it is no more a child, barely more than a clump of cells. So take an appointment as soon as possible (don't wait over 3 months, for the embryo to that point has developped enough and it increases aftermaths for the female) and get aborted. And if abortion is against your principles, then don't have one. Don't put bombs in abortion clinics nor cast hell promises over those who abort. Morals and ethics are personal matters, thus, don't try to infringe on them.

EDIT:

Or... Even better yet. Since the govenrment is already in debt and is always looking for a way to make a buck. I suggest this suitable remedy. Lets tax the <explicit deleted by the censor monkeys> out of abortion, and charge an insanely high fee for it, simular to cigerettes. I can't say that it doesn't have an adverse effect on life like ciggerettes do, AND people refuse to just not do it... so hey... maybe we have a solution here. Make the cost of an abortion be around the price of say $3000.00 dollars USD. Drop like a 70% tax increase on that sucker so now the price of abortion is well over 8 grand. and JUST for ships and giggles put an admendment into the artical that states that medicare and or other health insurance providers will NOT cover or support any of the cost to abortion. That should put things into perspective REAL quick for our young and irresponsible mothers. Of course we would also drop an admendment in there for cases such as rape and medical neccessity... but documentation, examenations and doctors concent paper work would be needed, so it wouldn't be abused.

Then again, that will just sharpen inequalities due to social classes. The cost of abortion would reach many thousands of dollars, riches would have safe abortion and the other "young and irresponsible mothers" would get all the crap. You seem to forget that there are "young and irresponsible fathers" too. And as you seem very influenced by your own story: you do not only have a biological mother who did not want to carry the burden of a child, you also have a biological father who didn't care at all of where his seed went and what it created. Come on, don't go on a mysogynis spree just because of your bad experiences. And without wanting to minimize your situation or anything, but imagine: what if your biological mother had used a condom? You would not be here, and no one would care, for no onecould have imagined you to be. And what if she had successfully aborted? Exactly the same. Except for her, who would have been aware of the abortion, and - let's hope - would have made things so that it would not happen twice. Now I'll stop here, for I do not one to use your story as a demonstrative case, nor to tickle your frustration.

[WeyrDragon]

Now what we SHOULD do is, make abortion illegal. Punish those that practice abortion simular to those who are convicted of manslaughter or vehicular homocide(That is roughly anywhere from 5 to 25 years in jail) for ever ban them from the practice of medicine, and be done with it. That will fix the problems real fast.
1) No medical doctor will risk the practice if their own license hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical school being wasted, and lively hood is on the line.
2) If no doctors are willing to practice abortion, this really narrows the market of places women who are pregnant to go to.
3) If women can't find an abortion clinic as easly (because there are none) then they are forced to either, deal with having the child and live with it, put it up for adoption, or adjust their life styles so that they don't end up pregnant to begin with!

This is possibly the worst idea ever. Not being able to find a doctor will not stop a woman from having an abortion, there are other methods that women use to abort the child, the details of which i will not go into. Atleast, if people are going to be aborting children, then there should be medical professionals allowed to practice this, to keep the woman from seriously injuring herself by trying to do an abortion by herself. As it is the amount of doctors we have for anything these days is going way down due to malpractice insurance costs going up and frivolous lawsuits, dont blame the doctors people, blame the parents.

[Ollie]

Now what we SHOULD do is, make abortion illegal. Punish those that practice abortion simular to those who are convicted of manslaughter or vehicular homocide(That is roughly anywhere from 5 to 25 years in jail) for ever ban them from the practice of medicine, and be done with it. That will fix the problems real fast.
1) No medical doctor will risk the practice if their own license hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical school being wasted, and lively hood is on the line.
2) If no doctors are willing to practice abortion, this really narrows the market of places women who are pregnant to go to.
3) If women can't find an abortion clinic as easly (because there are none) then they are forced to either, deal with having the child and live with it, put it up for adoption, or adjust their life styles so that they don't end up pregnant to begin with!

and etc.

...worst thing i have ever heard. XD

I had a lot written up to this...but then I remembered you don't care at all about the mother, only the unborn, so I'll just save myself the effort and go ga-ga over my copy of The Rover's Cripple that just arrived in the mail =3

[Wolfwood]

i'd rather see someone get an abortion instead of destroying there life with a child they just can't take care of.
also abortions help with the population problem, and i don't care how cold or uncaring that sounded.

[Elfy]

ok..basically I beleive that abortion is alright in some circumstances.
For example if a 13 year old is stupid enough to get pregnant (happened lots at my school) then maybe they should consider it.

Also if a girl is raped then falls pregnant then I definately think it ok.

[animeseishi]

yeah...abortion is all wrong...the baies have their right to live..

[Princess Minako]

You're right I can shout it until I'm blue in the face and it won't change a thing. So i guess we should all just give up and let it be drive thru? Who cares. One person can't change a thing.

Abortions are not as easy as you think. I had a very close friend that had one in college and watching her go thru it, the emotional pain and anguish she went thru after having it done. She ended up dropping out of college and leaving where we were, she went somewhere else and I never heard from her after that year in college. I hope she is doing well, but I do know that she will always think about it and regret what she did.

I probably won't ever get an abortion, but I do believe that people should have the right. I personally think that it is being abused, as a method of birthcontrol. It just shows the mentality of today and I find it disgusting.

The Goddess has Spoken

[Inu Sesshy]

i think abortion is wrong. when a girl or woman spreads her legs then that's her choice and she knows the consequences on what could happen. but if a girl or woman is raped, then i understand that. but its not the baby's fault, it shouldnt die because of that. but ive always heard that you never really live until you take your first breath of air.

[full metal alchemist]

thats not true your alive wqhen the first cell is made, you dont really breath inside the wonmb and you kick and punch when your a baby, although when in the woumb u do breath so technicaly u are alive and breathing in the womb




i agree 100% with you lon people mostly teenagers dont take it seriously enough, there liek get it got it good, and whe nits all over wat are you left with but a broken hearts and tears(female and male), i think that sex is a sacred thing not liek football, but peoeple just dont think anymore now these days they go with wat feels right, and tha tisnt always the best thing, like rape, soem people only make it up and others dont but i tihnk sex is an excuse to brag to your freinds, for example, you have a good eveing of hot passionate romance(when your married) and it feels so great becuase its who you devoted yourself to, if you wernt abstant when you get married you might as well put a big#4(or watever the number of poeple you have done +1) on her head and the nwhen its done your liek it was okay it wasnt as good as that ckick i did in highschool, my thoughs are that not being abstant are wat lead to abortion

[Tsuna Kadiri]

if you weren't abstinent when you get married you might as well put a big#4 (or whatever the number of people you have done +1) on her head and then when its done your like it was okay it wasn't as good as that chick i did in highschool (I spell-checked that for you....)

.... O_o. That is one of the most... eh... "creative" points I've seen anyone post on any abortion thread.

[full metal alchemist]

its true thats wat it would be like, you wouldnt feel as much for that special someone cause the nthey wouldnt be special to u trhey would be another statistic

[Tsuna Kadiri]

^ You do have a point there... But (I know this is off topic, but it's a genuine question) if you really love someone, would that really matter?

[full metal alchemist]

it depends if yuo truly love someone and u have kids with them then yes, but if you mean have sex just because you love them(to me in a way is ludacris) isnt right its like lon said sex is a sacred thing ment for reproduction, u dont see animals having sex for no reason when they have a baby it stays unless kickedo out by competion

[Ninja of the Night]

Abortion is wrong, I believe its murder. And to all those who dont think I should push my view on others and say that "If you dont like abortion, dont have one." Thats like saying, "If you dont like slavery, dont own a slave." Slavery was kept in America way longer then it should have because northen people said basically that same thing, "We dont like slaves so we wont have them here, but we dont want to upset the south, so let them do what they want."

Now if I just thought abortion was immoral, I agree 100% that I should just shut up, not push my views on others, and let them live their life due to their beliefs. But when it comes to the taking of what I consider human life, I cant just sit back and remain silent. Now Im not going to go bomb abortion clinics or anything, but I am strongly opposed to abortion and I voice it.

Also my views are not just based on my religion, I felt abortion was wrong and murder before I converted to Christianity.

[full metal alchemist]

same here i think its just plain wrong at least let the baby live rape victem or not, if you take the life of a baby who hasnt even had a chance to live, just makes me sick.